Kristlus ja vägivald

« Tagasi artikli juurde    Artiklile on 1537 kommentaari.

Hele, 2005-01-03 05:26:14

Teatavasti lõi Püha Augustinus esimese n.ö. kristliku vägivalla pretsedendi paludes kohalikult võimult appi väesalka montanistidega “tegelema”.

Johannese ev 2. peatükk
15. Ja Ta tegi paelust piitsa ja ajas kõik pühakojast välja, niihästi lambad kui härjad, ja rahavahetajate raha. Ta puistas laiali ning kummutas nende lauad

Matteuse ev 10. peatükk
34. Ärge arvake, et ma olen tulnud tooma rahu maa peale; ma ei ole tulnud tooma rahu, vaid mõõka!

35. Sest ma olen tulnud ajama inimest riidu tema isaga ja tütart tema emaga ja miniat tema ämmaga;

36. ja inimese vaenlasiks saavad ta omad kodakondsed.

andrus, 2005-01-03 08:12:57

tõsi Hele tõsi

aga milles vahe?

elfitaat, 2005-01-03 08:35:13

/Kui kirik ise korraks meeleparandajate ja armuotsijate kilda astub, taastab ta seeläbi ehk ka osa oma kõikuma löönud autoriteedist meie ühiskonnas./
Et otsapeale tagasi saada peaks:

Kirik peaks loobuma päripatu mõistest.

Loobuma vahemehe rollist inimese ja Jumala vahel.

Loobuma ristilöödud Kristuse kannataja kujust kui sümbolist. Lõpetama Kristuse liha ja vere tarbimise.

Keskenduma inimese juhendamisele vaimsel teel lähtudes inimese jumalikust olemusest.

Luua keskkond, kus saaksid kõik vaimsed pürgijad vaimset tuge ja juhendust.

Luua süsteem, mis suudaks haarata endasse kõiki usuvoole, liikumisi.

Pole kahtlust, et kirikuringkonnad on teadlikud tõelisest õpetusest, kuid jätkavad osavat manipuleerimismängu inimestega.

Muidugi võib ka senisel kujul jätkata, kuid enam mitte kaua.

Hodža Nasreddin(Rahurikkuja), 2005-01-03 08:39:16

Algkristlus ei olnud vägivallatu. Kohe päris mitu algkristlast tegid paganlike jumalate templis vallatusi, mille tagajärjel nad söödeti lõvidele...

Vaesed märtid... /ohkap/

andrus, 2005-01-03 09:02:49

ma ei arva et kirik manipuleeriks inimestega

üldse mitte

ka ei arva ma elfitaat et sinu valgustusaegne projekt kirikut aitaks

seda mitte

tase, Hele, 2005-01-03 09:02:51

Kas saab muinasjuturaamatut siiski reaalseks pidada?
Minu teada pole näiteks Agatha Christie teoste põhjal küll kedagi arreteeritud.

tase, elfitaat, 2005-01-03 09:05:38

_Loobuma vahemehe rollist inimese ja Jumala vahel._

Sel juhul kaotaks kirik ka oma mõtte.

_Luua süsteem, mis suudaks haarata endasse kõiki usuvoole, liikumisi. _

Oma urantiakiriku loomisega peaksid sa ikka ise tegelema. Oleks jabur veenda kristlikku kirikut kristlusest loobuma.

andrus, 2005-01-03 09:07:25

tase

see on hea näide modernismiraamatuiks on just detektiivromaanid

kus avastatakse 1 objektiivne tõde

postmodernismiraamatuiks on fantastika ja uusmütoloogiad

aga vanamütoloogiad on soterioloogiad ehk päästeõpetused

aga me elame Runneli sõnul ajal mil:

keegi kedagi ei päästa

ükstaskõik kuidas sooviks
olla kurb seista juures
jääb siis ainsamaks sooviks

tase, elfitaat, 2005-01-03 09:08:09

_Pole kahtlust, et kirikuringkonnad on teadlikud tõelisest õpetusest, kuid jätkavad osavat manipuleerimismängu inimestega._

Loomulikult on, nad usuvad, et selleks on kristlus, mitte aga midagi, mille sina oled välja mõelnud, ning sama ekslikult “tõeliseks õpetuseks” pead.

Iga mõtlev ja valgustatud inimene peaks ju ometigi teadma, et Tõeline Tõde(R) on Voogu ja tema õpetus.

tase, andrus, 2005-01-03 09:09:50

_see on hea näide modernismiraamatuiks on just detektiivromaanid

kus avastatakse 1 objektiivne tõde_

Eks URgi seda ole.

andrus, 2005-01-03 09:10:19

kristlus on pääsemine teise inimese läbi

kes on küllaldane ohver

tänapäeva sõnum on pääsemine iseenda läbi ilma ohvrita

vaid selle läbi et kõik kuulutatakse normaalseisundis olevaks

pääsemine läbi raha
;-)

andrus, 2005-01-03 09:11:37

sätisfäkson garantiid oor mani bäkk

euroopa on aeglane

USA on juba seal

tase, andrus, 2005-01-03 09:13:18

Shipping and HANDLING charges are not refundable.

elfitaat, andrus, 2005-01-03 09:15:58

andrus, 2005-01-03 09:02:49

ma ei arva et kirik manipuleeriks inimestega

üldse mitte

ka ei arva ma elfitaat et sinu valgustusaegne projekt kirikut aitaks

seda mitte

No ma vähemalt pakun midagi välja vastavalt oma rikutuse astmele.
Muidugi see projekt on utoopia.
Kuid seda sa ütlesid ilusalt - sinu valgustusaegne projekt - tänan.

elfitaat, andrus, 2005-01-03 09:20:55

andrus, 2005-01-03 09:10:19

kristlus on pääsemine teise inimese läbi

kes on küllaldane ohver

tänapäeva sõnum on pääsemine iseenda läbi ilma ohvrita

vaid selle läbi et kõik kuulutatakse normaalseisundis olevaks

pääsemine läbi raha

See jutt, et on vaja millegist kohutavast pääseda ongi see manipulatsioon. See on hirm, mis inimestesse süstitakse. Hirm kiriku tööriistaks.

tase, elfitaat, 2005-01-03 09:22:30

_See jutt, et on vaja millegist kohutavast pääseda ongi see manipulatsioon. See on hirm, mis inimestesse süstitakse. Hirm kiriku tööriistaks._

Ilma hirmuta, ei huvitaks religioon peaaegu mitte kedagi.

andrus, 2005-01-03 09:26:37

ilma hirmuta oleks päris hirmus

andrus, 2005-01-03 09:28:27

see soov ei olegi käsiteldav inviduaaltasandil lugupeetavad

ikka on old see rahva pääsemine hea rahva liige olemine jms kusjuures ka raffas pole käsitledav tänase etnose mõttes

pääsemine on jumalarahva vääriline liige olemises nii on ta old

elfitaat, 2005-01-03 09:32:47

Selgitus. Ma olen lugenud URi, kuid ma ei ole selle raamatu eriline fänn. See on vaid killuke infot nagu igasugune teinegi info. Ka seal ei räägita kõigest siiralt lõpuni.

andrus, 2005-01-03 09:36:52

Directions for the Torture of a Witch

The method of beginning an examination by torture is as follows: First the jailers prepare the implements of torture, then they strip the prisoner (if it be a woman, she has already been stripped by other women, upright and of good report). This stripping is lest some means of witchcraft may have been sewed into the clothing – such as often, taught by the Devil, they prepare from the bodies of unbaptized infants, that they may forfeit salvation. And when the implements of torture have been prepared, the judge, both in person and through other good men zealous in the faith, tries to persuade the prisoner to confess the truth freely; but, if he will not confess, he bids attendants make the prisoner fast to the strappado1 or some other implement of torture. The attendants obey forwith, yet with frighted agitation. Then, at the prayer of some of those present, the prisoner is loosed again and is taken aside and once more persuaded to confess, being led to believe that he will in that case not be put to death.

Here it may be asked whether the judge, in the case of a prisoner much defamed, convicted both by witnesses and by proofs, nothing being lacking but his own confession, can properly lead him to hope that his life will be spared – when, even if he confess his crime, he will be punished with death.

It must be answered that opinions vary. Some hold that even a witch of very ill repute, against whom the evidence justifies violent suspicion, and who, as a ringleader of the witches, is accounted very dangerous, may be assured her life, and condemned instead to perpetual imprisonment on bread and water, in case she will give sure and convincing testimony against other witches; yet this penalty of perpetual imprisonment must not be announced to her, but only that her life will be spared, and that she will be punished in some other fashion, perhaps by exile. And doubtless such notorious witches, especially those who prepare witch-potions or who by magical methods cure those bewitched, would be peculiarly suited to be thus preserved, in order to aid the bewitched or to accuse other witches, were it not that their accusations cannot be trusted, since the Devil is a liar, unless confirmed by proofs and witnesses.

Others hold, as to this point, that for a time the promise made to the witch sentenced to imprisonment is to be kept, but that after a time she should be burned.

A third view is, that the judge may safely promise witches to spare their lives, if only he will later excuse himself from pronouncing the sentence and will let another do this in his place. . . .

But if, neither by threats nor by promises such as these, the witch can be induced to speak the truth, then the jailers must carry out the sentence, and torture the prisoner according to the accepted methods, with more or less severity as the delinquent’s crime may demand. And, while he is being tortured, he must be questioned on the articles of accusation, and this frequently and persistently, beginning with the lighter charges – for he will more readily confess the lighter than the heavier. And, while this is being done, the notary must write down everything in his record of the trial – how the prisoner is tortured, on what points he is questioned, and how he answers.

And note that, if he confesses under the torture, he must afterward be conducted to another place, that he may confirm it and certify that it was not due alone to the force of the torture.

But, if the prisoner will not confess the truth satisfactorily, other sorts of torture must be placed before him, with the statement that, unless he will confess the truth, he must endure these also. But, if not even thus can he be brought into terror and to the truth, then the next day or the next but one is to be set for continuation of the tortures – not a repetition, for they must not be repeated unless new evidence be produced.

The judge must then address to the prisoners the following sentence: We, the judge, etc., do assign you,———, such and such a day for the continuation of the tortures, that from your own mouth the truth may be heard, and that the whole may be recorded by the notary.

And during the interval, before the day assigned, the judge, in person or through approved men, must in the manner above described try to persuade the prisoner to confess, promising her (if there is aught to be gained by this promise) that her life shall be spared.

The judge shall see to it, moreover, that throughout the interval guards are constantly with the prisoner, so that she may not be left alone; because she will be visited by the Devil and tempted to suicide

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